More than a month after Hamas’ terrorist attack against Israel which left around 1,200 dead, sparking a fresh round of violence in the region, Israeli forces are continuing their advance inside the Gaza Strip.
Israel’s offensive has been marked by a high civilian death toll. According to the Health Ministry of Gaza, more than 11,000 people on the Palestinian side have died since October 7, including over 4,000 children, as well as journalists and United Nations employees.
Israel and US President Joe Biden doubted these figures, but international organisations, such as the UN’s World Health Organisation, have said they have no reason to disbelieve them (more on how casualties are recorded in Gaza here).
In an interview with in-cyprus and Phileleftheros, the Israeli Ambassador to Cyprus Mr Oren Anolik stresses that the war will continue for as long as it takes. The aims, he explains, are to eliminate the operational capabilities of Hamas, ensure the return of the hostages taken by Hamas and make sure that the people who lived close to the border with Gaza are able to resume their lives and feel safe again.
Interview with Xenia Tourki and Stelios Marathovouniotis.
One month after the Hamas terrorist attack, what has changed in Israel?
Israel has transformed; Israel has transformed after the massacre of October 7. Israel is not the same country. I cannot even count all the different ways in which this change has come into effect. And some of this will just be unfolding as time passes. But we have experienced a collective national trauma. We were viciously attacked in ways that I can call in no other way but as the coming true of every nightmare that every person might have.
And when your nightmare materialises, it affects your mindset, it affects your psyche. The executions, the mutilations, the amputations, the raping, the beheading. It’s unbelievable how vicious and cruel this attack was. So we are a different country today in ways that it will take us some time to understand how different we are.
What are Israel’s political and military objectives in Gaza?
We have three goals for this war; a war that was forced upon us; that we had no desire to go in and have. But this attack forced us into this war. Our three goals are as follows:
The first one is to eliminate the capabilities of Hamas, both militarily, as well as its governmental capabilities. So Hamas will no longer be the force that is ruining Gaza. We have no illusions; we are not going to eradicate Hamas as a movement. We are not going to eradicate Hamas as an ideology. But having these people with this ideology, who are doing whatever to remain in power is a suicide from Israel’s point of view. Therefore, we need to remove them, so something else could be brought into Gaza.
The second goal is the return of our hostages. We lost 240 people: babies, children, women, men, and elder people as Hamas hostages. This is a crime against humanity. We demand, first, the unconditional immediate release of all of them. In addition to this, we demand that the Red Cross is able to see them. We want to have some kind of report about their situation or condition. We want to make sure that they’re receiving the medicine they need or any other equipment. We want to know that they are safe and that our goal is to bring them back to their families.
The third goal is to secure Israel’s borders. And what do I mean by this? The people who are living next to Gaza, in those communities and villages and kibbutzim, need to know they can go back to their houses, they need to know they can, once again raise their children, provide for their families, live a peaceful life on the border of Gaza. Without being scared all the time of what happened. So, we need to make sure that whatever happens behind this border is something that we can live with.
If there’s something I can say about the day after, after this war is over in Gaza, is that we want to see neither Hamas in Gaza nor Israel. We have no interest in occupying Gaza, governing Gaza. We left Gaza in 2005, we don’t want to go back to Gaza.
If Israel doesn’t want to occupy or be in Gaza, how will it ensure that Hamas remains inactive and that its operations against Israel will stop?
The Prime Minister was very clear, on record saying exactly what I said, we don’t want to occupy or govern Gaza, we don’t want to stay in Gaza. Having said that, since we need to make sure that our security is not damaged again, we would most probably need to be in a situation that when required, when needed, we can go in and out of Gaza.
To a certain extent, you can see the situation in the Judea and Samaria today. We left the cities in Judea, the Palestinian cities of Nablus and Ramallah and Jenin. We left them, there is no army, and there’s no need for any military in those cities. In 2002, following the series of suicide bomb attacks in Israel, we went back into those cities, we had an operation, Operation Defensive Shield, in which we were able to hit the infrastructure of Hamas terrorists back then, and we came out. But ever since then, we still maintain this right. When we need to go in and out again. We are not looking to occupy or to stay or to govern. But since the forces on the ground, Palestinian security forces of the Palestinian Authority are not always successful in eliminating those risks we will not depend on anyone else in this regard, we will not wait for our citizens to die. And we will take matters into our own hands in this regard.
I can foresee something similar happening in Gaza as well after this war for a period, and I cannot say how long it will take. Hopefully, there will be at a certain point a strong local government or authority that will be able to have a monopoly over the use of arms on the Palestinian side. But we will not just wait there for this to happen by itself. We will take the necessary measures and steps to make sure that our citizens are not being slaughtered again.
Is there a political plan to safeguard peace in the area? Will you go back to discussing a two-state solution?
First of all, I accept in principle, the idea that says that eventually, in order to make sure that all the people in the region, including Israelis, and Palestinians can live in peace and coexist, there needs to be some sort of political solution. I cannot outline that solution right now. But in principle, I accept the idea. How this will come about? In what way? What the process will be? I don’t have a good answer for this.
I think that we are now still in an early stage, we still need to create new conditions in the region. We need to finish this job of eradicating Hamas’ capabilities. If this is not achieved, there is no future to speak about. If Hamas stays in power in Gaza, what peace are we talking about? Hamas is the enemy of Palestinian sovereignty as much as it is to Israel. Those two factions in the Palestinian society cannot reach peace between them, so how can we speak about peace with others?
So, we first need to make sure we have different conditions to try to find what can be done later. And I believe that this is something that will require efforts from many players, not just Israel and the Palestinians. I think the international community will need to look into this matter and see what can be done in this regard.
There are plenty of things that need to be done, including changing the indoctrination of society on the Palestinian side. One of the things that I was horrified by was not just the attack itself but the cruelty. It’s also the fact that there are so many people that were celebrating this massacre, these butcheries, this horrible antihuman attack, in Gaza and in other places in the Palestinian society. Here in Larnaca, we saw celebrations like this.
This is something I’m much more concerned about because this raises the question of what kind of future can we speak about if the people are celebrating these kinds of atrocities.
October 7 was clearly a terrorist attack to which Israel had the right to respond. However, how can the high number of civilian casualties, especially children, be justified?
Let me start by saying that I deeply regret the loss of life by civilians. I strongly wish there was a way to fight a war, which would be a ‘sterile’ war, in which you could kill only the terrorists and no one else. I would strongly like to have a situation in which we can only fight Hamas.
But this war was forced upon us. Hamas is committing a dual war crime; both indiscriminately attacking our civilians, while hiding behind civilians. We are fighting an enemy that chooses to put its headquarters underneath hospitals, that chooses to take schools and put their depots of weapons inside, that chooses to embed itself inside the civilian population.
Therefore, I’ve said the responsibility and the guilt when it comes to the killing of civilians, first of all, lies on Hamas, and Hamas I’ll say it again, is the de facto ruler of Gaza. They have a responsibility to the people they are governing, but for Hamas, Palestinian civilians are an asset. They celebrate this. They believe in this culture of death; this is what they want to see happening. Now, we are making a lot of effort. And there are plenty of ways to try to minimise the number of civilians killed. It’s difficult, because of the way Hamas is fighting, because of the way that Gaza is built. So it is difficult, and civilians unfortunately died.
I can say two things: One, in comparison to other similar military operations, we have been successfully keeping a low ratio of civilians versus terrorists that have been killed. And secondly, we are making a lot of efforts in this regard. We are warning the population to move from the more dangerous areas to the safer areas, we are opening humanitarian corridors, we are analysing, and we are holding back on attacks when we feel that with a specific attack, the civilian damage will be excessive in comparison to the military advantage.
We are we are a law-abiding country. We fight according to international law, and international law doesn’t say civilians cannot die. Unfortunately, this is always the situation in war. What international law is saying is ‘Be careful, do whatever you can to prevent the killing of civilians,’ but the fact that civilians die doesn’t mean that there is a war crime happening here. It doesn’t mean that there is something against the law. You cannot judge by the images you see.
I understand that but again, is it worth it for a Hamas commander to be killed, for 100 or 200 people, children to lose their lives?
Proportionality is exactly where you want your question is coming from. It depends on the situation. Who is this commander? Is it someone who has the blood of thousands on his hands? How many civilians might get killed? I cannot do the math. I cannot tell you. Is he worth a hundred people or 150?
Generally speaking, the numbers that you’re mentioning, seem like large numbers to me. I find it hard to believe that for one single terrorist, we would be willing to kill a hundred civilians. But if we can kill with a certain attack 50 terrorists and three civilians are there, will all due respect it’s legal. It’s according to international law. It’s not excessive.
Unfortunately, in some cases, civilians are paying a price for being around terrorists. But we are looking into this, we are not in any way, disregarding this. We care a lot. And I can tell you again and again, that we are holding back attacks when we come to the conclusion that a certain attack will cause disproportionate damage to civilians compared to our military advantage. We have lawyers who are following this.
It’s important for us, not just because somebody else is telling us. It’s because of who we are. What are our values? What do we believe in? What kind of country Israel is?
The large loss of civilian life in Gaza has sparked outrage all over the world. This has turned a part of the public opinion against Israel and it might affect the political and material support the country receives from other countries. Is this something that Israel is considering?
I cannot accept the assumption based on your question. I think first, if you look at the positions, mostly of the Western world, the United States, the EU and others, you can see that their positions are good and clear. They stressed important elements; the condemnation of Hamas attacks, the solidarity and support of Israel, and the recognition of Israel’s right to defend itself within the boundaries of international law. They tell us to be careful, take care of this, and make sure to minimize the losses and we are doing this.
So first of all, essentially it is not as you described it. We are still having very strong support for what we’re doing and an understanding that we need to complete this job. If anybody wants to think about any kind of a distant future in this region, we cannot let Hamas have the power.
So, it is unfortunate that civilians are dying, very unfortunate. Again, I deeply regret it and I hope we can do even more to continue minimising it as much as possible. But there is such a thing as a just war. And this is a just war.
Even if Hamas is eliminated, regional antagonists such as Iran and Hezbollah will remain. How do you plan on dealing with this?
Iran is not just a problem of Israel. Iran is not even a problem of the region. Iran is a global problem, for everybody that believes in values, such as democracy, freedom, justice, and peace. Therefore, it’s up to the international community to try to find ways to thwart the Iranian threat. And the Iranian threat is a multifaceted one. It’s a nuclear threat, a missile threat, a terror threat, it is promoting instability in the region.
Most of the Arab countries around us are also very much concerned about Iran. Part of the reason why Israel and other countries of the region can get closer is by understanding that our interests when it comes to Iran converge. So, I think that when it comes to Iran, there needs to be a global kind of approach to try to solve this problem.
Hezbollah is one of the proxies of Iran, but it also has a Lebanese arm. I don’t have a good answer to what are we going to do, what is going to happen. I can only express the hope that Hassan Nasrallah, the Secretary-General of Hezbollah, will not make mistakes. That he will not think that this is an opportunity to do something against Israel. Because the price we would pay for such a mistake would be a severe one.
Before October 7, there was a warming of relations between Israel and neighbouring countries, which also affected the gas dispute involving Cyprus. Where are we now?
At the moment, things are on hold. But I strongly believe that the interests that led us to where we were before the war are still there. They haven’t changed, maybe they even strengthened. I strongly believe that once this war is over, and we look again at what our interests are, I have faith that we can continue on this track. We signed the Abraham Accords with our neighbours, and we are willing to continue this process. I want to remain optimistic about the capability of doing so after the war.
How do you view Cyprus’s support towards Israel and its proposal to create a humanitarian aid corridor to Gaza?
The position of the Cyprus government is a positive one. The statements issued by Cyprus are what we would like to see from our friends; the condemnation of terrorism, solidarity with Israel, the recognition of Israel’s right to defend its citizens.
The initiative for a maritime corridor is a positive one. The President (Christodoulides) shared this with Prime Minister Netanyahu and received a positive response in principle. We need to go into the details of how this will be implemented. We have a discussion between the two governments on how this can be implemented. What are the terms for this? What needs to be achieved for this to happen?
There have been reports in the media about Israelis relocating to Cyprus in search of refuge and Israeli companies considering moving their headquarters to the island, mainly in Larnaca and Limassol. Do you have numbers regarding the people who have moved to Cyprus?
There are no official numbers for this. Cyprus is an attractive destination; I can say this. For Israelis and for other nations. In recent years, we see more and more Israelis coming to Cyprus, and making their home here. We estimated that before the war – this is a rough estimation – that there were between 10,000 to 12,000 Israelis residing in Cyprus.
At the beginning of the first two weeks of this war, we saw Israelis coming out of Israel because of stress and fear of the war and coming here. And we saw many Israelis coming from all over the world through Cyprus injuries to join the military efforts of Israel.
What we see now, this past week or two, we see less and less Israelis leaving the country, as the flights from Israel to Cyprus are not that full at the moment. But we see people going back. We see Israelis coming here for a week, two weeks, three weeks and then going back into Israel. I can’t tell exactly how many are here and for how long they are staying. If it is just temporary or how many would like to make it permanent. It’s a very fluid situation at the moment.
After October 7 there has been a huge recorded increase of anti-Semitic attacks across the world. Does the Jewish community in Cyprus feel safe?
There was an unbelievable rise in anti-Semitism around the world. It is just disheartening to see this. It’s very hard for me, for Israelis to understand. Where does all this come from? What does it say? There was this hope or belief, that anti-Semitism was in a sort of decline.
But what we’re seeing now is unbelievable; the marking of houses of Jews around the world, the incapability of making any kind of distinction between being Jewish and being Israeli, it’s not the same thing. It’s alarming, it really is.
As for the Jewish community here in Cyprus? I think that the Cyprus authorities are aware of the situation and are taking measures to try to make sure that the Jewish population in Cyprus can feel as safe as possible.
Looking at social media, it seems that the Palestinian side is winning the information war. How is that possible considering that Israel is a much technologically advanced state with more resources at its disposal?
There are two things that work to our disadvantage: One thing is the fact that on the other side, truth is not really important. So, it’s very easy to come out with any kind of disinformation, any kind of fabrication, any kind of fake news. We don’t want to spread disinformation.
The second thing is numbers. Jewish people all over the world are 15-20 million. When it comes to social media, numbers play a role.
I am unsatisfied with the way that Western media is covering this war. I’ll use the Al-Shifa hospital as an example because both the BBC and the New York Times had to come out and apologise for the way they covered this incident. Now, if you do not do the basic journalistic work that you’re supposed to do, that you’re proud of doing, of checking facts before you publish them, what can Israel do?
(Photo by George Christophorou)
